Martine:

Hello and welcome to this episode of the conscious women entrepreneurs podcast. Today I am excited to introduce you to Dr. Haley and she has earned a Bachelor of Science in Biology and nutrition from Cornell University and attended medical school before becoming a board certified dermatologist. In 2004, Dr. Haley was selected as the VIP dermatologists consultant in the US Capitol, Washington DC and has lived and worked all over the US with a background in nutrition, fitness and skin science. Dr. Haley understands the true integration of wellness and its effect on skin health. She is sought after For expert advice on many media outlets, including Fitness RX magazine, Shape and O magazine, Dr. Haley has also worked on the Scientific Advisory Board of a number of skincare startup companies and consults with many Fortune 500 companies sharing her insight on wellness and skin. So thank you so much for being here. 

Dr. Jennifer Haley:

Thanks for inviting me, Martine. Yeah. So basically, what you’re saying is that I’m older than you. You know, we get to a certain point of our lives, we have a lot of stuff that we’ve done. So I’m happy to share that with your audience. I think if we have a sense of purpose and vitality for life, our energy force is strong. And that keeps us youthful, right? 

Martine:

Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your journey to where you’re at. Were you always interested in wellness and skincare? How did you embark on this journey? 

Dr. Haley:

It’s a long journey. I was raised pretty poor without much information and ignorant parents who didn’t really understand health and wellness, they were basically just trying to survive and put food on the table. And I’ve always been super curious. I realized at a young age that what I put in my mouth affected how I felt, and how I performed as an athlete. And I’ve always been interested in challenging myself, intellectually and physically. So I took that path. And, you know, I buried my head in the books and studied really hard to, you know, make a better life for myself, which I’m grateful that we can, right. I believe I was born in the right place at the right time as a woman where I have opportunities to leave my station per se, you know, as opposed to, you know, other time periods of the world. And I just worked really hard, I have a lot of grit, I’m not particularly smarter, or faster, or more talented than anyone else. But I will keep getting up no matter how many times they get knocked down. And I wanted to be a veterinarian. I love animal. And mostly, I really like dogs. And at Cornell, they have a great pre vet program. And it’s mostly farm animals. And I didn’t want to take care of farmer animals. So I switched over to pediatrics. And I wanted to be a pediatrician and go to medical school. And while I was there, I spent a day in dermatology and I realized how amazing it was. Well, before I realized how amazing it was, I didn’t really think it was a real doctor, I’m just going to admit that I thought dermatologists were like pimple poppers, I didn’t realize that the skin is this amazing organ. It’s an organ just like our liver or heart or brain or kidneys. And the skin is a visible organ. It’s really the only visible organ, you know, except with the exception of the eyes is a visible part of your brain. But the skin is a visible organ, so it reflects your internal health. And that’s why I went down the road of Dermatology. And then as I was doing dermatology, I always liked to have side things. So I’d run marathons or I did fitness competitions. And, you know, I realized that there were gaps in information in different areas. So I tried to fill those gaps by serving and educating other people. And that’s how I became interested in that arena of fitness and nutrition and bringing it all together. And then after practicing for almost 20 years, I had so many patients, I don’t know how it is over in Norway, for you were in some of your other listeners, I know you have listeners all around the world. But in the United States, a lot of people will seek external treatments to fix things. They don’t really want to look inside. And they want to say oh, I want to have a laser to fix things. And I realized that by being able to take care of people with really unlimited resources, they had as much money as they wanted to spend on cosmetic procedures that they weren’t radiant, and they weren’t glowing and they weren’t getting the results that I wanted them to get unless they incorporated lifestyle measures as well. And that’s, you know, exercise nutrition but it’s also connections. It’s the thoughts we put in our head. It’s the belief systems we have and that’s why I started my podcast, so that I can kind of congregate and bring everyone together from all aspects and hopefully bring an aha moment to people like oh, I have the power to, you know, emanate beauty, how we define it, you know. Or emanate radiance, which I think is even more important. Attraction is more important than, you know, a picture of beauty through, you know what I can do, and it doesn’t have to be expensive. So, that’s kind of part of my journey. 

Martine: 

Wow, that’s amazing. So, instead of just looking at the skin, in the more, I would say, mainstream way that it has to be now that people just want to look youthful and beautiful, but they just want to fix it as if it is something wrong with their skin, rather than looking deeper and inside and figuring out what is causing this. 

Dr. Haley:

Exactly! So when there’s a rash, or acne, there’s usually some sort of a toxin that needs to be purged, or some sort of an imbalance of the immune system, whether it’s hormonal, or stress, or plastics, or you know, all the other things that were exposed to nowadays. So putting those things together, were the beginning stages of really understanding this, but it’s, it’s yelling at you, your skin is yelling at you, if it’s you know, if it’s misbehaving. 

Martine:

Yeah, for sure. And it’s so fascinating how you were mentioning that you thought that it wasn’t really a real doctor, in the beginning, before you realized really what this was. Whereas when we hear about heart surgeons or, or brain surgeons, or they specialize in, you know, intestines or whatever, like, Oh, that must be really a complicated and real important work you’re doing. Whereas when you say skin, people just think about surfaces sort of just fixing up the wrinkles, or whatever, where this is actually the major organ that reveals a lot about our health. 

Dr. Haley: 

Exactly. Yeah, what you said is true. And that’s another issue that I want to bring to the forefront is we divide the body, right? Why do we do that? Why do we say, Oh, that’s a, that’s a stomach thing, or that’s a hard thing, when it’s really all connected. So you know, everything is connected. And if someone you know, there’s this cut the skin, gut brain access, and it’s all connected. And if you think about your skin, into your mouth, it goes through your guts, and then comes out the other side, and it’s all one big kind of microcosmic orbit, even you know, it just kind of circulates through. And it’s all connected. It’s, it’s, it’s not separate. So we have to look at it as connected. 

Martine: 

Yeah, this is actually a little bit on the side of what we’re talking about. But I think that it’s really fascinating to mention. I read an article about Botox, and how it affects people’s personalities. Because when you smile, you use certain muscles, and that sends signals to the brain. And likewise, if you hear a really sad story, or something that someone is telling, you use muscles that trigger, you know, empathy, and that sort of stuff. We have these mirror neurons, that reflects what other people think and feel. And that’s how we connect. So they found that people with Botox that weren’t able to use those muscles, in the same way, appeared less empathic, because they didn’t produce the same hormones, because they could use the same muscles in their face. It’s just how incredibly entangled everything is. And you know, if you want a smoother skin through Botox, you might also throw that empathy slightly out of the window? 

1. Haley:

Yeah, it really depends on how it’s done. And I’ve done Botox on myself for 20 years, I teach courses, and I know these studies, because I discuss them in the courses because there’s such a, there’s such a fine line between having muscle relaxing effects so that your lines smooth out versus freezing the muscles so that you cannot make those micro expressions that are needed for the for the mirror neurons. So the first study that was done, I don’t know, maybe 10 years ago on the frown lines, if you can’t make a frown you can’t, or you don’t send signals back to your brain to be sad. So it can actually help with depression. If you do Botox in the frown lines, right? But going back to smiling, right, so if you smile with your mouth, and not what we call the squinch, if you look at the squinch, which is like that little extra squish that you do with your eyes, that’s not considered an authentic smile. And I know you don’t do the video, but like this is a fake smile. And that is a real smile, right? Because you need that squinch so too much Botox will get rid of those small micro movements. You know, it’s body language, just like micro movements. And it’s the way we communicate through those micro expressions basically, because we do communicate 70% body language, which is why we’re zoom calling right now even audio for everybody, you know, and even blind people can tell when you’re smiling when you talk because the whole voice changes when you smile. So all of those things are important to keep in mind and I’m pro Botox but it has to be done correctly. So it’s a commodity and it’s in the hands of someone who does it right. But you have to keep those things in mind. Because in the chase for smooth, perfect skin, you can lose connections, like you just said, and at the end of the day connections are all that matter. 

Martine:

Yeah, exactly. Okay. So if you want to try Botox, really do your research and go to someone that knows their stuff.

So because this is a podcast for conscious women entrepreneurs, I always want to ask my guests about their experience in running a conscious business and how that looks in practice. So how’s that for you? 

Dr. Haley: 

I’ve had a lot of pathways. My first went through medical school through the military through the US Navy. So I’ve run departments in the Navy, but it was always under someone, just like when I worked at the office of the attending physician in the US Capitol, it was under someone so I learned how to run departments and work with people. So working with people was the most challenging thing for me. Because if you’re a high achiever, and you have a lot of grit and you’re a workhorse, you will always get stuff done. But at the end of the day, when you have a business, if you don’t know how to motivate people or work with other people, well, you’re not going to get anything done. Because it’s not just about you at a certain point, you have to delegate and trust other people to make a successful business go. And then when I left, I was living in Hawaii, and I set up a practice in Colorado. And that was my first experience setting up a practice. And it was super fun because I was able to create it how I wanted and everything was environmentally sound and biodegradable and refurbish and resourced. And it was really beautiful. I made the exam rooms however I wanted in my creative way, like each room had a certain theme like a Hawaii theme or a mountain theme. I wanted people to feel like they were visiting somebody’s house and not like they’re in a sterile exam room, you know, even though you have to obviously keep it clean. So that was fun for me to be creative. The lessons that I learned from building a business, basically, the most important thing is to check in with yourself and have very clear intentions, know your purpose, go inside yourself and up, don’t look outside to the world of like what you’re supposed to do how you are supposed to be defined, because it leads you down a road of dissatisfaction. So you really have to be true to yourself, go in and up and have very clear intentions and know what your purpose is before you start and then create a great team. So for me, you know, creating a great team, sometimes people don’t work out. And it’s me, it’s not because one person is bad or one person is good. It’s just not in alignment. So you have to find out once you know your purpose, who you’re aligned with, and you will manifest those people into your life and you’ll attract those people into your life. A lesson that I was told, that I followed and I’m really glad I followed, is don’t ever hire anyone that you can’t fire. Keep the family out of it, keep your husband or girlfriend out of it, you know, things like that. So, don’t ever hire anyone that you can’t fire, right? Because Business is business at the end of the day. Continue to check in with yourself regularly to follow your truth, that’s really the most important. And then, because I have a service business every day, I have to come from a place of serving others. So I just am serving others, you know, and there’s a balance there because you have to have a profitable business. So, you know, everybody that works with you needs to understand it must be profitable, because then that will ensure you all have jobs, right? But you still can do that through excellence and serving others, which I think will make your business more profitable. 

Martine:

For sure! So, you really have the experience of working with other people and learning the lesson of delegation. And also, you really shouldn’t be hiring someone that is dear to you in your private life.

Dr. Haley:

It’ll keep people out of trouble, you know, especially if they want to maintain the relationship because as much as you think it’s not going to affect your personal life it does you know, so it has to it has to be compartmentalised and kept separate. And then I think as a woman, a lot of high powered women have a hard time in their relationships, because they’re used to being dominating their business and very, you know, when I was in the military, I’m a doctor, you know, I can be very assertive, I’m from New York, and can be very assertive and strong and abrupt, and you know, all of those things. And then when you come home, like, it’s good to take the role of the feminine, you know, and I’m not saying not being natural, but we all have masculine and feminine sides. So it’s important to just surrender and release it and, you know, be feminine with your partner. You know, if that’s the role that you want to play, you know, you don’t have to be in that guard dog, like, you know, Boss mode all the time. So I sold my practice a couple years ago, about five years ago now. And I moved to Arizona because my mom got sick with cancer, so I wanted to be closer to her. So we moved and I sold my practice and now all I do is consult with other companies. So I consult and I do online telemedicine and things like that, so I don’t have employees anymore. I’d say for me, that was the hardest part. Trying to keep everyone happy all the time. Yeah. I accumulated a lot of knowledge. And now it’s time to give back to others and teach. 

Martine: 

Yeah. So you mentioned that you do consulting for both large companies and startups and everything. So how does that look on a regular basis? 

Dr. Haley: 

Yeah, so I have a couple of projects. I can’t talk about who they’re with. I don’t know why that’s the rule, but that’s, that’s what I’m told. I do everything from like a little bit of artificial intelligence to help companies develop. I helped Philips a couple years ago, they were going to launch an app in Germany on how weather affects your skin. So I don’t know, whatever happened to it, I just developed content of like, you know, today, the weather is blah, blah, blah, your skin type is blah, blah, blah, this is what we recommend. And it was that sort of an algorithm. So I’ll do those sorts of things. I’ve had companies who want to start skincare lines, like help me create skincare for them, and then I just do different advising, like in the back scenes. And that’s, that’s what I enjoy doing. I don’t really care for being the spokesperson of anything. I like being in the background. Oh, and then I teach and, you know, things like that, or a lecture at different conferences and things like that, just depending on the topic. And I’m getting more into the integrative space and the holistic space because that’s kind of where I want everyone to kind of just merge, you know, so I was at a biohacking Congress over the weekend in Silicon Valley. The first in-person event I’ve gone to and a year and a half. It was a group of 50 people. So it was interesting. 

Martine:

So were you there to observe the latest research and stuff, or were you there to collaborate with someone or speak – or what was their role in it? 

Dr. Haley:

Yeah, I observed. You know, I always like to find out what the newest cutting edge things are. And I was here to support my friend Chloe Weber. She has a company called radical roots, and she’s a Chinese herbalist. Wow. So yeah, I was supporting her. And she was speaking there. So I was not speaking this one. Okay, how amazing. Has there been any other major lessons that you’ve had from your journey as an entrepreneur so far, like, any obstacle to overcome or something that other than what was spoken about that you’ve overcome? Yeah, I mean, so many obstacles overcome, I think that? Don’t tell yourself No. Like, I had a good friend in medical school. And she said, Oh, I’m not going to apply for dermatology, because it’s too hard. You have to be really smart and get good grades to get into that specialty. I said, why would you ever tell yourself out? let someone else tell you no, like, just keep trying. And then when I applied, I remember, this jerk interviewed me. And he said, what happens when you don’t get accepted? So I guess, you know, my response back then, which I thought was pretty good when I was in my 20s, which, you know, I didn’t think much of myself then. But was, well, I’ll find out why I’ll fix it. And I’ll reapply, because this is the only thing I’m going to do with my life. So I think if you understand what you want, the most important thing is like understanding what you truly want. Because so many of us in this world, we feel like we have to do something, you know, like, we’re told that at a young age, we’re supposed to do X, Y, and Z. And the most important thing is to check in with yourself and see if that’s really what you want. Because you’ve got to live your life at the end of the day. And believe it or not, people are not as affected by you, as you think, you know, like you really you’re going to do so much better. You’re going to create a new position, if it’s something that you love. And the other thing is, is I’m almost 50 I’ll be 50 this year, I’ve done a lot, you know, over the years things add up. And the other thing is, the reason I say that is because it’s normal to change careers throughout your lifetime. Just because I went to school for 24 years to be a dermatologist. I was beating myself up for a few years. Like why am I not practicing in the clinic every day? So I created this whole other side project of consulting and advising and teaching and mentoring and now starting a podcast and it’s a sunk cost. You know, you have to think of sunk costs like, well, it really wasn’t a sunk cost because I did work and I did help people. And I did practice for a long period of time. And now I’m ready to evolve into another area. So just remember, like, it’s not your identity. It’s something that you do. It’s like Cindy Crawford. I heard her say, a quote many years ago, she said I model but I am not a model. Like that’s not my identity. So I work as a dermatologist, but I am not a dermatologist. I’m so much more than that. And so is everyone else, like we’re all we have. We’re multifaceted. We have so many different areas and so many ways to express ourselves and different areas of our lives. And if one area is no longer serving you, that’s okay. It did serve you and you served others and it’s time to move on. So I think that that’s something that I’ve had to overcome and I think it’s a common thing for people. To get stuck in a position and not want to move forward, but you really only have one life and the end of the day like, what do you regret more doing it or not doing it?

Martine:

Yeah, exactly. People get so stuck in identifying with something like you say, “I am a dermatologist”. And “I’m a doctor”, “I’m a surgeon”, “I’m a lawyer”, I am this or that thing. I’ve done this for so many years, because I wanted to be an entrepreneur, when I was 14, I just didn’t know what I would do, but just not identifying with any sort of profession. Because I’ve always said that I work with marketing, I’m not a marketer, or whatever. And whenever you’re presenting yourself to someone at a party at a get together, whatever people are, so what do you do? That seems to be the first thing that you’re identifying is your profession, whereas you’re saying, you know, it goes so much deeper than that. And if we don’t identify with it so deeply as our identity, then it’s easier to pivot to the next thing. If we feel like that is more aligned with our next transition? 

Dr. Haley:

Exactly. Yeah, we’re fluid, you know, we should be fluid, we’re not fixed. So, I think that’s important to keep in the back of your mind, especially if you spend a significant amount of time studying or working in a field, it’s okay to pivot. 

Martine:

Yeah. And I see that a lot in the coaching industry as well. People come from all kinds of backgrounds, you know, finance, lawyers, doctors, whatever, and then they feel fearful that they’re taking on this new hat, or that they’ve been wasting so much money on their education, or they should stay true to their education, or it’s like, it’s okay that it took you this far. But now there’s other parts of you that get to shine. 

Dr. Haley:

Exactly. And it’s never a waste, you know, whether we like it or not, those experiences have brought us to this place. And they are useful for other endeavors. 

Martine:

Yeah. So did you ever have resistance to words speaking and living your authentic truth to the world? Like your more alternative sides? 

Dr. Haley:

Oh, yeah, up until the last year and a half? Are you kidding me? This is new, this is a new phenomenon for me. Yeah, no, I lived in, I should do this, I should do that. And even before I started my podcast, I went to this wonderful course. And and I remember saying, like, well, I’ve been writing a book for seven years, or I thought about doing a podcast. But you know, everyone is already doing that out there. And I heard the message like, yeah, so what you have is a unique voice, like whether Martina says the same thing I say, it’s going to sound different. And it’s going to resonate with different people in different ways. So why not do it? So it’s really been new for me in the last year and a half to embrace myself. And, you know, some of that involves a divorce and life transitions and discovering who I am. And, yeah, it’s never too late. 

Martine:

Yeah, I love the part about having your own voice in it. And I heard this quote, “I’m not aiming to be the guru, I am aiming to be a contributor”. And then you lift so much pressure off your shoulders, because you don’t want you just want to add value with your own voice and contribute to the conversation. And it totally gets picked up differently by hearing it from one angle than the other. Like, sometimes it’s just the slightest tweak of a sentence that makes it click for someone. 

Dr. Haley:

Yeah, exactly. Yep. Same with me. Same with me. And I could hear the same message five different times. You get something different out of it each time, depending on who says it. And what mood you’re in as well. 

Martine:

So, I want to ask as well, have you ever had a coach on your journey?

Dr. Haley:

Yes, I have. Yeah, I wasn’t a big believer in coaches. I think I was pretty stubborn. And I lived more in a black and white world. When I was younger. I was just so headstrong. You know, when it worked. I had this formula. Like, I choose what I want to do. I work really hard, and sometimes too hard. Doesn’t have to even be that hard. And then I get there. I started working with a couple coaches. I said, Okay, I have this money set aside. I think this is the year I’m going to start spending it on me and doing something for me. And that was really hard work. It was very eye opening. I had to take a lot of accountability for things that I was doing that weren’t really serving me. It wasn’t my best and highest. Yeah, there was a lot of work being done with that sort of like when you coach you know you give people homework and it needs to be done. Right. We have to do our work. We can’t just, you know, take our stuff and give it to someone else and expect it to come back all pretty So yeah, I’m a big believer in coaches. I think it helps work through limiting beliefs. Give a fresh perspective of you know, someone who’s not emotionally tied to you. Just, you know, say, Hey, I’m good and tell your Bs and like, face it and let’s work through it. So, yeah, I’m a big believer in coaches. I think I’ll continue to work with coaches as well. 

Martine:

Yeah, because we’re so close to our own problems. It’s almost like it’s in our peripheral view, but we can’t really catch what it is because it’s either too close or just in our subconscious mind. Whereas it’s really clear to a coach that it’s trained to look for bullshit.

Dr. Haley:

Yes, I know, and patterns, like patterns that may arise in your personal life and your business life that you don’t recognize, because they’re just ingrained. It’s how you were raised. And all you know. So how can you break those patterns until you identify them? 

Martine:

Yeah. And there’s also this, sort of saying how you do something is how you do everything. And really tailors in to your patterns. And yeah, just your mindset and how improving one part of your life will spill into the other areas of your life. So it’s not just in silos again, like we’re so interconnected in our mind and in how we operate in this world, as well as in our body. So we’re just this tangled piece of fluent magic.

Dr. Haley:

I like that. That’s true. Yeah. And our skin is kind of draped over the fluid magic. I love that. You know, the other phrase, I don’t know why this just came to me when you said you know, how you do anything is how you do everything. But there’s another phrase I use, and this might be good for some of your listeners who are entrepreneurs. If it’s not a hell yes. It’s a hell no. So like, when I say to my kids, hey, do you want to do blah, blah, blah? And they’re like, maybe I go if it’s not a hell yes. It’s a Hell no, don’t give me maybes, you know, so I asked myself often, like, is this a hell yes. And if it’s not an absolute hell, yes. It’s, it’s really nice to know. Yeah, that streamlines things. 

Martine:

For sure. Yeah, it simplifies things. I also love to include the body in our decisions, what feels more like relief, because our body tells us if we’re stressed, if we have all these things, it’s like, Okay, well, how can we sort this out? What options do we have and what feels the best for you in your body? What feels like relief? 

Dr. Haley:

That’s a good point, especially with friends and relationships, like, someone is a good match for you, and you just feel at peace when you’re with them. They have to feel stressful, you know, I mean, obviously, there’s always conflict. It should feel it should feel at peace for the most part, right? 

Martine:

Yeah, for sure. So, we are getting to the end of this interview. And so I have three rapid fire questions that I love to ask my interviewees. So, what is your favorite quote? 

Dr. Haley:

I have so many and I have different ones for different parts of my life. I would say if I had to choose one, it’s a Maya Angelou quote, she says “People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did. But people will never forget how you made them feel.” And how I try to walk away from every situation is being true to myself and kind to other people and generous with my heart. And I think it’s contagious for the world. And it’s so necessary now. 

Martine:

For sure. That’s one of my favorite quotes as well. Maya Angelou has so many nice quotes. 

Dr. Haley:

Yeah. Carl’s young has a good one too: “The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances. If there’s any reaction, both are transformed.” 

Martine:

Wow, I’ve never heard that. And I am an absolute quote junkie. So thank you. Okay, so next question: What is the book that has impacted you most in terms of your entrepreneurial journey? 

Dr. Haley:

Because I’m in the service industry, my favorite book, and it’s for personal reasons, and also for professional reasons is the Four Agreements. I was listening to another one of your podcasts. And somebody mentioned grit by Angela Duckworth, and I love that book more for my kids. It’s a great book. And I think that’s great for entrepreneurs as well. But for me, it’s the Four Agreements I think, you know, if you can follow those, everything’s just going to align in this world. 

Martine:

Yeah, I’ve heard about it, but I haven’t yet gotten around to read it. 

Dr. Haley:

Yeah, there’s like, be impeccable with your words. Always do your best, you know, when I have to look it up. But there’s four main things and he goes into like the toltec wisdom behind it. And it was an aha, for me, it was a definite Aha, for me. I’ve read it a couple times now. Okay. Highly recommend it. 

Martine:

I’ll put it right on top of my reading list. Okay, so the last question is: What is something that the listeners can do or focus on this week to get them closer to being a successful entrepreneur and living life on their terms? 

Dr. Haley:

I think the most important first step is what we talked about is checking in with yourself no one else, what your purpose is, what sets your heart on fire, what gives you energy and that she that vital life force, that’s what you need to decide. And then everything from there will flow. So that’s the most important thing. Um, yeah, so just knowing your truth. You know, don’t be afraid because you can create a job that doesn’t exist. Just because it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean you can’t create it. So that will fall into place. And remembering that you have a unique voice, like we talked about, 

Martine:

Yes, for sure. I love that you brought up that it might not actually exist yet. Because I see that so much. I mean, digital marketing wasn’t a thing, you know, 15 years ago. And here we are, like, thanks to technology. And maybe there’s some new trend that arises and and there’s the whole new profession around that, like we never know. And also remember a lady that spoke about children and how they can unfold. And we never know if they would be an amazing painter if they’ve never accessed painting before. Or they never know if they’re a great dancer if they haven’t tried dancing before. So really just allowing ourselves to try all these different things and playing.

Dr. Haley:

Yeah, exactly. Like, why do we stop playing, you know, and I realized this a few years ago, because when you’re a mother, you get your children involved in activities, but we stop as adults. So I learned to mountain bike last year, I learned to ski two years ago, I learned to paint. I wasn’t very good at it. I did piano like, I’m committed to trying something new every year, whether I like it or not, because we don’t know, right? You don’t know what you don’t know. And you can’t unknow what you already know.

Martine:

So true. Awesome. Where can the listeners find you? 

Dr. Haley:

I have a website, drjenhaley.com, @drjenhaley on Instagram and on my podcast Radiance Revealed with Dr. Jen Haley. It’s on all the platforms. 

Martine:

And I’ll share this on there as well. So I’m so grateful to meet you and to know you. And this has been such a great conversation. Yeah, amazing. I will link all of those details in the description box as well, so that you can just go and click on it. So thank you so much for this interview and showing up so brilliantly. So thank you so much for the amazing conversation.